Posted by: nhfalcon | October 20, 2008

This One’s For Kizz

A while back Mrs. Chili had a post about that favorite argument-inspiring topic – politics. Specifically, the post was about a poll Mrs. C. had found about whether or not Sarah Palin was qualified to be a VP, and the discussion  (which was remarkably well-beahved, all things considered) just took off from there.

At one point (Comment # 19, to be precise) Kizz wanted to know exactly what is was about McCain that made his supporters support him. I realize my response is nearly a month later, Kizz, but here it is, nonetheless, first rationally, then emotionally:

1) Taxes – yes, my taxes will be lower under Obama than they will be under McCain, but my taxes will still be lower under McCain. More to the point, everybody’s taxes will be lower under McCain. Under Obama, a certain portion of the American people (a small portion, yes) will see their taxes increase, in some cases by as much as 25%. I realize that a lot of people vote based on how the candidates are going to affect them directly, but I vote based on how I think the candidates are going to affect the country as a whole, and I think it’s better if everbody gets a tax break, not just most of us.

2) Health care – on the surface, Obama’s plan certainly looks better than McCain’s, especially in the number of people who will no longer be uninsured, but does everybody realize that Obama’s plan is going to cost $300 billion dollars more than McCain’s?

3) Social Security – do people realize that Obama has been on record as considering raising the retirement age and cutting Social Security benefits?

4) The environment and energy – no, McCain is not as ambitious as Obama in these arenas, but he is far better than Bush and most Republicans.

5) Gun control – I don’t agree with McCain 100% here, but I agree with him more than I do Obama.

6) Immigration – Obama wants to give illegal aliens driver’s licenses.

Any questions?

And for those of you who think MCain is just Bush’s bitch, did you realize that he co-sponsored a bill with Ted Kennedy in regards to dealing with illegal immigration? How bipartisan is that?!

7) Abortion – no, I don’t like that fact that he’s been quoted as saying Roe v. Wade should be overturned. However, he’s never said that abortion should just be illegal, period. He has been on record as saying that the Constitution should be amended to ban abortion except in the cases of rape (unlike Palin, apparently), incest, and risk to the mother’s life.

Misc.) McCain doesn’t allow his staffers to hold positions as lobbyists.

He has argued for more stringent safety standards for automobiles.

He voted for the FMLA and sponsored the Family Friendly workplace act.

I prefer his foriegn policy over Obama’s (though I’m not keen on sticking around in Iraq anymore).

He wants to cut federal spending and eliminate earmarks.

I’d hardly call a man who has been quoted as saying he’d vote for a Muslim for President if that individual was the most qualified person for the job a member of the radical religious right.

I like where he stands on border security, making English the official language of the U. S., and dealing with illegal drugs and other crimes.

I’m not in line with all of his stances on education (school vouchers and even entertaining the idea of teaching creationism or intelligent design), but I generally agree with his policies on education. 

There, that’s why I support McCain. Not (WARNING: here’s the emotional part I alluded to earlier) because, based on some of the comments I’ve seen out there, anybody who votes Republican must be an ostrich with his head buried in the sand, a sheep willing to follow the Big Lie, unintelligent, intolerant, and / or homophobic.

Look, the bottom line is that I do not think McCain is perfect. There’s a lot about him I don’t like (his stance on homosexuality, for example). However, there’s a lot more I don’t like about Obama (though he’s a damn sight better choice than Hilary would’ve been (SHUDDER!!!).

Rest assured, however, that if Obama does win, I will support him while he’s in and just hope he does a good job. As Roy Boehm, the first ever Navy SEAL, once said to JFK, “I didn’t vote for you, sir, but I’ll die for you.”

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Responses

  1. Is this a gift I can return for something that better suits me? 🙂

    2) Yes, it’s going to cost more to insure more people, that seems like common math to me. I think the point is to make sure everyone gets health coverage. Go check out what’s going on with AngstGirl for my POV on that. The only way to prove which is a cheaper plan is to do some sort of per-person cost analysis and I’ll admit I don’t know how to do that.

    3) No, I didn’t.

    4) That’s a pretty low bar over which to heave oneself and one’s SUV.

    5) I’m pretty sure you and I are always going to disagree on gun control. I’m also pretty sure that no one has fired a machine gun outside your front door. Agree to disagree and all.

    7) McCain’s final debate performance would seem to refute anything he’s said before about supporting abortion in cases where the mother’s health is at risk. Perhaps he’s done some research and changed his mind on some of the stances you’re citing.

    I haven’t heard him outline a plan for those spending cuts and I’ve seen him actively avoid answering questions that ask him to.

    There’s so much going on in the delivery of that voting for a Muslim quote that it’s just not something that can be concretely discussed.

    Do you think we can stand another 4 (or 8) years of someone who doesn’t make education a priority and do it correctly? The kneecapping our educational system has taken for the past 8 years (at least) will be screwing us up the ass without dinner or lube for decades to come.

    For the record, the last time he ran I seriously considered voting for him if made it through the primaries. He had a caring, thoughtful, quiet strength about him that felt like just the right combination of guy-next-door and towering authority. Emotionally, I feel like that man and this one are worlds apart, and not in a good way.

  2. Have you watched the video of Colin Powell’s endorsement of Obama? I’ve read excerpts but not watched the whole thing yet.

  3. Wow. There’s SO much about this post that I disagree with, but let’s just start with the “amending the Constitution to make abortion except in specific cases” part.

    Seriously? What the HELL business does abortion have in the Constitution? Further, and similarly, what business does marriage have in the Constitution? Republicans are known for wanting smaller government, and I fail to see how regulating what people can or cannot do with their bodies falls under the scope of smaller government. I’m happy to hand a bunch of powers over to the government – I like paved roads and safe food and garbage collection and efficient interstate travel and all that stuff – but I want the government to stay the fuck out of my – and everyone else’s – personal life.

  4. Um, yeah, also what she said. And that’s a really good point. What’s with all this, “We want smaller government! We don’t think government should interfere with personal rights! Well, except for abortion and marriage, after that government is right the hell out of your life.” You may want cheaper government (by you I mean people that say that, not you specifically unless you do) but I don’t think you mean smaller.

  5. Yes, Kizz, the gift is exchangeable – perhaps for a copy of “Black Hawk Down”?

    Or have you returned that to me already? It’s been a while since I’ve even looked for it, so I’m not sure.

    Well, all that explanation certainly ruined the joke, didn’t it? 🙂

    * – There’s no questioning, based on the sheer numbers of uninsured who will get coverage under Obama’s plan, that Obama’s plan looks better. But it’s not as if McCain isn’t doing anything (his plan would reduce the number of uninsured by 5 million by 2013). Maybe it’s a finger in the dike compared to Obama, but it’s better than letting the dam burst, isn’t it?

    * – McCain wants higher fines for not complying to CAFE standards, a $5,000 (he’s awfully fond of that figure, isn’t he?) tax credit for customers who buy a zero-emissions vehicle, and wants to reward the company that develops a next-generation car battery. He wants to increase ethanol imports and go to production on plug-in hybrids. He’s co-sponsored a bipartisan bill on greenhouse gas emissions. He wants to raise the mpg standard to 35mpg. He recognizes global warming.

    There, does that throw that SUV any higher?

    * – No, I’ve never had an automatic weapon fired anywhere nearme , but I’ve grown up around guns and know more about them than the average Joe, and I think you should have more of a problem with the individual firing the gun than the gun itself.

    A gun is a tool, nothing more. It has no brain, heart, soul, or will. It does what its user makes it do. Can an automatic weapon kill a lot of people? Sure it can. So can my car if I decide to drive it into a parking lot full of tailgaters at a football game. Should cars be illegal? A quick trip to the grocery store or the hardware store and very little effort (a quick scan on the Net will do) will make me a very nice bomb that will kill far more than any AK-47. Should grocery stores or hardware stores be illegal?

    Am I exagerrating to make my point? Yes, I am. No, a car wasn’t made to kill, and neither were any of the materials I could make my bomb out of, but the point remains that a gun does nothing by itself.

    * – In regards to earmarks, Arizona ranked dead last in federal earmarks because McCain and other Arizona politicians refused to ask for any federal money for state projects.

    * – based on what I’ve been reading of late, Mrs. Chili, abortion has been tied into the Consitution almost from the get-go. Both proponents and opponents have invoked the Bill of Rights and one amendment or another (the 14th and the 9th, for example) to further their cause.

    NONE (to the best of my knowledge), however, have ever proposed actually amending the Constitution to directly affect abortion. I do not support doing so. I did not mention McCain’s support of doing so because I support doing so. I mentioned it because his views of abortion itself are fairly close to mine.

    I do think a woman should have the right to an abortion if she is the victim of rape, incest, or if her health or life is at serious risk. I don’t think she should be able to get an abortion as a form of birth control.

    * – one final point here, folks. I do not blindly follow McCain or the Republican party. I do not blindly hate Obama or the Democratic party. There’s a lot about McCain I do not like and a lot about Obama I do like. When it’s all said and done, however, I just like McCain more, and the purpose of this post was to point out why. That is all.

    Oh, and P.S. – personally, I think this whole party system is at the root of what is fucking this country over.

    “Let’s do what’s right for the Republicans!”

    “Let’s do what’s right for the Democrats!”

    FUCK that!

    How about we just do what’s right for America?

  6. mrschili– you and I usually agree about pretty much everything, but the Supreme Court made abortion a “Constitutional” issue with Roe v. Wade. While I support the right to abortion on demand, I find the intellectual underpinnings of Roe V. Wade to be weak, to say the least.

    mrschli– (again) You say “Republicans are known for wanting smaller government.” I would have said “Republicans are known for SAYING they want smaller government.” It’s one of their buzz phrases, sort of like “tax and spend liberals.” It is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    Falcon— why is everybody so wound up about tax reduction when the country operates at such a huge deficit, paying $406Billion (2006) in interest every year on that deficit. Nobody talks about decreasing spending. I fault both parties and both candidates on this.

  7. I’m almost certain I gave BHD to Chili as a stepping stone to getting it back to you. It’s possible you were moving at the time and she’s had it in safekeeping so you wouldn’t have one more blessed thing to pack. I’ll ask her, or she’ll see this here and enlighten us.

    Re: health insurance I’m not sure why voting for the OK solution is the choice. Re: his health insurance plan I’m concerned, as I’ve written about a lot, about the way he throws around the $5K tax credit. I’m doing OK for myself and I don’t have $5K to spend and wait for the government to possibly return to me the following April (or May, or July). For me, and for many others, $5K might not cover what we need to have done in a year, either.

    McCain gets points for even acknowledging alternative energy. However, given how he’s running this campaign he seems to be under enormous pressure from his party and his party has a lot of fossil fuel money it depends on so I’m concerned about that symbiosis.

    My dad was a regionally ranked sharpshooter. I agree about the tool thing and the person not the gun thing. However, when the kid who lives next door to me can drive down to SC, pay a woman $50 off the street to show her driver’s license in a gun store and have her buy $500 worth of weapons that he proceeds to illegally traffic back up to my neighborhood I feel we need to look at some serious gun control reform. (That’s how the machine gun, and the bags and bags of other weapons it was with showed up in front of my building.) Buying a weapon is a major decision and should not be entered into lightly or in anger and checks and balances need to be enforced. It’s not a second amendment issue because we’re not raising a freaking militia. I’ve not heard either candidate speak on this point but that’s what I feel.

    “I don’t think she should be able to get an abortion as a form of birth control.” If this distinction is determined by anyone other than the woman in question then one is, in essence, saying that women are incompetent to make decisions about their own body and morals. To be frank I find that pretty fucking disrespectful. To be logical in debate, the next POTUS will appoint between 1 and 3 Supreme Court Judges. I’m looking for a president who will try to appoint people who think I’m smart enough to make my own decisions. It’s a big country, not every woman will make decisions you or I agree with but every woman deserves the option. The first steps to good decisions in this and all arenas are the faith that she is capable, the ability and the education. McCain has proved time and again in this campaign, above and beyond condescending finger quotes, that he’s not prepared to think that of any woman and he chose a running mate who backs his play in this arena. In some ways this, for me, trumps all other positions he holds because why would I vote for someone who thinks I’m stupid? And by extrapolation thinks his first wife, his second wife, his running mate, his colleagues, his employees and half the world are stupid and cannot be trusted with decisions about their own bodies, far less about matters of state.

    What was it Colin Powell said about choosing the person who is the right President for our country right now? Yes, I agree with Powell. 🙂

  8. I don’t think that abortion should be a form of birth control, either, but I also know PLENTY of women (certainly more than one) who chose to have an abortion at, say, 18, and who are now far more productive and responsible contributing citizens than they likely would have been had they been forced to bear that child. Would these women have been able to go to college and get decent jobs if they’d been raising children so young? Would they have been forced to go on public assistance – something that NO ONE seems to want more of (myself included, believe it or not!)?

    I subscribe to the wisdom of the bumper sticker; “Against abortion? Don’t have one.”

    I also agree with Kizz that this is a decision that can be made by no one BUT the woman (and I’m sorry here, guys; I understand that you have a stake in the choice and I would hope that your woman would include you in her decision making, but the ultimate choice is entirely hers). I believe that there should be no federal interference with it at all, though (up to and including funding); doctors can choose to perform them or not, women can decide to have them or not, people can decide to protest or support it or not, but the government should stay the hell out of it.

  9. In a conversation with Chili I realized what I should have said about abortion. Here it is:

    It’s a parallel to your gun/car example. You want to outlaw abortions (even if you add caveats this is what you’re asking be done) because some people are using them irresponsibly but you don’t want to add higher restrictions on gun ownership because people are using THEM irresponsibly? This is illogical to me. No, this is illogical.

  10. And then when I was out in the world of the internet I came across this in one of my regular reads:

    http://www.feministing.com/archives/011746.html

    The whole post is about Palin and Feminism but inside it they talk about what the McCain/Palin campaign is saying vs. what McCain has done in the past. Of particular interest to this discussion is the bit about the FMLA. Sorry, there’s no good short quote I can pull out as representative.

  11. OK, deep breath…

    (no, not because I’m getting irate. I’m not. These are excellent and valuable arguments, and I’m learning a lot in the process. I just think I’m going to need a lot of oxygen for my re-re-re-re-rebuttals 🙂 )

    * – TwoBlue, in some areas, anyway, McCain has detailed some of his spending cuts. Just to use the military as an example (GASP! A Republican wanting to cut military spending?! SACRILEGE!!! 🙂 ), he would ditch the C-17 cargo plane, the airborne laser missile defense system, and the Future Combat Systems.

    I absolutely agree that federal government spending needs to be reined in toot sweet, in many areas.

    * – the “OK” solution in regards to health care is a viable choice to me because it costs $300 billion less.

    * – please note that I originally said in this post that I do NOT agree with McCain 100% on gun control. I just agree with him more than I do Obama.

    McCain opposes restrictions on assault weapons, opposes making gun manufacturers liable for third party crimes, and opposes restricting the availablility of handguns. He supports manufacturers having to include safety devices like trigger locks in their packaging.

    OK, so far I’m with him.

    He opposes waiting periods so background checks can be made before somebody is allowed to buy a gun.

    There I am NOT with him. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with having to wait for my gun while the law makes sure it’s not a bad idea for me to have one. That make sense. That’s assigning responsibility to where it should be – to the person, not the tool.

    That should also tell you that I DO want to make sure guns are not being used irresponsibly.

    * – abortion (why do I get the feeling I’m not going to be welcome at Mrs. Chili’s tomorrow night… ?). I in no way feel women are incompetent to make choices about their own bodies or morals. I am NOT trying to be disrespectful.

    I am talking about lives being ended before they’re even given a chance to begin because somebody makes a mistake. A fully rational, intelligent couple succumbs to the throes of passion and fails to take the time to put on a condom. A couple of teenagers get busy in the back of the car even though neither one uses birth control. A couple of strangers have a few too many drinks and a one-night stand ensues, sans protection. Because of simple, everyday mistakes like that, a life gets ended? Why does somebody else pay for a mistake you made?

    And I’m not speaking just from theory, here, either. Little Man was not planned. I did NOT want children. EVER! But, Cookiemaker and I succumbed to the aforementioned throes of passion one night, and viola, there he was. When Cookiemaker asked me what I wanted to do, the first words out of my mouth were, “Well, abortion is out.”

    I know what you’re about to say. “That’s NOT your choice!” You’re right, it’s not. If she had disagreed with me, I would’ve acquiesced (sp?) to her decision. But I wouldn’t have been happy about it.

    So now he’s here. And I love him. And I wouldn’t have changed how things turned out for the world (that doesn’t mean I want another one, but… 🙂 ).

    Which brings me to my response to your response, Mrs. Chili. How many of those aborted children could have been productive and responsible contributing citizens if they’d been allowed to live?

  12. “lives being ended before they’re even given a chance to begin”

    If life hasn’t begun how is it being ended?

  13. Kizz speaketh sooth.

  14. “If life hasn’t begun how is it being ended?”

    The way I figure it, you’re doing one of two things with this question: 1) you’re playing semantics, or 2) you’re invoking the scientific argument, aka “when is a fetus a human life?”

    And my answers are as follows:

    1) I’m talking about viable biological entities being ended before they’re even given a chance to experience the full spectrum of human existence.

    Better?

    2) As far as I’m concerned, as soon as a doctor can tell you you’re pregnant, that fetus is now a human being.

    Now, if I may also use your gun control / abortion argument, you have a problem with sentencing a person to death after they’ve been found guilty by our legal process and a jury of their peers, but you have no problem with killing a complete innocent?

  15. So your definition of when life begins has to be mine (and everyone else’s) too? Yes, we’re now getting into the ridiculous part of the debate but my point is that NO ONE has the right to make this decision for anyone else.

    I’ve been sitting on this next bit for two days and now I can’t not say it. When someone says they’re choosing a health care plan because it’s the cheaper one rather than the one that will help more people and then wants to make decisions for other people about abortion it niggles me because it sounds a whole lot like that person is ready to fight to make sure that babies gets born but not to take care of all of them once they get here.

    I’m really glad that when you had a misstep and found out your wife was pregnant and made your decision about it that it worked out for you. You guys are very lucky.

  16. You’re right – it is getting to that point, isn’t it? You’re not going to convince me, and I’m not going to convince you, and while I don’t think either one of us would let the discussion devolve (is that word, or did I just make one up?) to the point where one of us would offend the other, why take the chance?

    What was it you said originally when you brought up gun control? Agree to disagree and all?

    Good discussion, though. Thank you.

    Oh, and btw, I did watch the Powell endorsement of Obama. Very impressive.

    I’m still voting for McCain, though. 🙂

  17. Make no mistake, I’ve been offended repeatedly throughout the conversation. I’ve just kept talking and tried to keep it civil.

    I’ll see your agree to disagree and raise you one keep your decisions off my body.

    Do what you gotta do man, and I’ll do what I have to do and we’ll just cancel each other out, it’ll work out fine.

  18. Sorry you feel that way, Kizz. To offend was not the intent.

  19. I’m moving to Ohio for the next 10 days so I can vote and cancel out the people I hear have “moved” there from New York to vote for Obama.

    Same day registration/voting is an invitation for voter fraud.
    Just like our financial system has gone “insane”, the same is now becoming true of our voting system. Many state organizations are being inundated with all these last minute registrations. They don’t have the resources to properly verify
    that people are really residents and legal to vote in that state.

  20. […] light of some of the things I’ve said around here lately, I need to remember that sage […]

  21. […] 25, 2008 by nhfalcon (hopefully this goes over a lot better than the last one did! […]


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